Hip Hop x Occupational Therapy / Occupational Science with Dr. Jian Jones

[00:00:00] I am Brother Cornel West and this is Hip-Hop Can Save America

[00:00:32] Check out my free Substack newsletter at www.mannyfaces.substack.com that's filled with all kinds of stories of hip-hop innovation, inspiration, and generally hip-hop news that isn't about dumb sh**.

[00:00:43] For everything Hip-Hop Can Save America, hip-hopcansaveamerica.com. For everything Manny Faces, www.mannyfaces.com.

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[00:00:56] Now let's go.

[00:00:58] The thing about hip-hop today is it's smart. It's insightful.

[00:01:06] The way that they can communicate a complex message in a very short space is remarkable.

[00:01:14] And a lot of these kids, they're not going to be reading the New York Times. That's not how they're getting their information.

[00:01:27] So hip-hop didn't invent anything, but hip-hop reinvented everything.

[00:01:43] Dr. John Jones.

[00:01:44] Can you hear me?

[00:01:45] I can hear you. You're a little quiet, but I'm exceptionally loud so maybe it's just me.

[00:01:50] Okay. What's good with you? What's good? What's good?

[00:01:53] My daughter says yes, it's just you.

[00:01:55] Hey baby girl Faces.

[00:01:56] She said hey baby girl Faces. She said hi back. How you doing my friend?

[00:02:02] You know, everything is everything like Lauryn Hill said so we sticking and moving like you know, like they say down in Miami.

[00:02:11] I like it. That's why I like it.

[00:02:13] Listen, I tell you that every day nowadays good is great. If I'm good, I'm great. I'll take good.

[00:02:18] It's good to see you my friend. I haven't seen you in quite some time, but it's good to see you.

[00:02:21] It's good to see you too. I am absolutely honored to be on Hip Hop Can Save America. Absolutely honored.

[00:02:27] So thank you so much for asking me to be your guest.

[00:02:30] Of course, long overdue. The honor is mine, but I had to make it, you know, we got to get the cameras right.

[00:02:34] We got to get lights. We got to, you know, good looking folk.

[00:02:37] We got to, you know, we got to present ourselves in the right way. So we had to do it right.

[00:02:40] So it took a little time. Yeah.

[00:02:42] So listen, please introduce yourself.

[00:02:44] You know, I gave a little bit of a prelude, I guess, to our talk.

[00:02:48] Obviously it's on the screen. Occupational science.

[00:02:51] I remember I said to the folks before we came on, I said, I didn't really understand this before I met you.

[00:02:57] Like I didn't know. I didn't get it. And then you kind of broke it down to me and I'm like, oh, this is fascinating.

[00:03:03] So I want you to get into it for the lay folk out here who might be listening.

[00:03:07] And then obviously the connection to hip hop while we're even talking, why you are in the honors mind to have you on the show.

[00:03:13] But present yourself to the world as you would like to be presented.

[00:03:16] I just want to read your bio. Just tell the people who you are as you like to be presented as you like to be presented.

[00:03:22] That's dope. Hey world. Hey young girl. The world is yours.

[00:03:26] My name is Dr. Dion Jones. I am from Tallahassee, Florida by way of a very small town in South Georgia titled Pelham, Georgia.

[00:03:35] I am an occupational therapist by trade, but I'm also an assistant professor at Florida A&M University, which is FAMU at HBCU.

[00:03:42] The number one public HBCU in the nation.

[00:03:47] I served as an acute care occupational therapist within the hospital setting for about nine years before transitioning into academia to teach the future occupational therapists of the nation and world.

[00:03:59] And in doing that, I realized that there were aspects of our identity.

[00:04:03] And when I say our identity, being at the HBCU where you have multiple cultures within graduate programs and undergraduate programs, I realized that I was teaching from a traditional gaze.

[00:04:16] And if I am teaching the students about how to use their beauty, use of self and how to relate to clients, which are individuals on that very meaningful personal level, then why should we have to, I would say dissect or

[00:04:29] compartmentalize an aspect of ourselves that is not necessarily accepted, which would be hip hop culture or hip hop identity.

[00:04:36] And so even though I'm an occupational therapist, I'm an educator and researcher as well, I started to investigate and explore the benefits of hip hop culture within the field of occupational science and occupational therapy.

[00:04:50] So occupational therapy is a rehabilitative profession.

[00:04:53] It is the cousin to physical therapy.

[00:04:54] We help individuals learn or relearn how to participate in occupation, meaningful activities that bring you life satisfaction.

[00:05:03] And so just with that exploration, I fell in love with the fact that I was able to intersect that even though there was no pathway for it within the occupational science and occupational therapy discipline.

[00:05:14] So I pulled from those that we know Christopher and I have been talking about, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that.

[00:05:20] So I pulled from, you know, those that we know Christopher, M.D., Bettina, Gloria Lassett buildings, you know, I can go on and on and on.

[00:05:28] And I just put that or situated that within occupational science and occupational therapy space.

[00:05:33] And here we are today.

[00:05:35] I have presented so presented data and research as it relates to intersecting hip hop and occupational therapy education for student empowerment, for student self determination, for self reflection on field work.

[00:05:50] To improve achievement and performance.

[00:05:54] I have done a few things.

[00:05:57] So yeah, that's a little bit about me.

[00:05:59] I'm a mom of three. I love to work out and eat healthy.

[00:06:02] I love documentaries.

[00:06:05] So yeah, that's a little bit about me.

[00:06:07] I was telling you how important documentaries are.

[00:06:10] It's fantastic. You do this.

[00:06:12] Yeah. See, well, I told people before you came on, like we get the smartest people, we get the most interesting people on this show.

[00:06:20] It's just a blessing. It's amazing that that is all fascinating and and a mouthful to us, you know, regular folk.

[00:06:29] But it's super. This is so fascinating to me.

[00:06:33] And, you know, I've been on your show. So shouts to the two 15s podcast that you that's right.

[00:06:39] So, you know, you've got your podcast game as well.

[00:06:41] And it was the honor was it was pre reciprocated for me to be a guest on there.

[00:06:45] And you were asking me some questions about occupation and the idea that and you just said it, you said sort of the idea that the things you do in life to live a successful or happy or fruitful or prosperous life.

[00:06:59] That's occupation. Now, as you know, a lay person is going to say, wait, occupation means job, right?

[00:07:04] Occupation means right. So so one step back, just you said it, but I want you to expand upon it.

[00:07:11] The idea and again, the difference between occupational therapy and occupational science.

[00:07:16] I understand the occupational therapy was first and there was some confusion at some point about exactly what it is or what it's supposed to be.

[00:07:25] Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah.

[00:07:27] And then occupational science was developed to kind of try to, I guess, codify what occupational therapy is actually supposed to be.

[00:07:36] And then now folks like you are taking it to the next level.

[00:07:38] Explain all that in a way that makes sense.

[00:07:41] That's dope. You are an amazing journalist.

[00:07:44] So right. Occupations are things that we do each day.

[00:07:49] So like you said, things that we participate in that bring us meaning and life satisfaction that includes self care.

[00:07:53] Self care is grooming task, is toileting task, is eating and drinking.

[00:07:59] Right. It's driving yourself with just community mobility being able to get from point A to point B.

[00:08:05] But it also includes what we participate in in terms of work, how we provide a skill in order to receive money to take care of ourselves for that self preservation into buy into or not buy into but provide for our family.

[00:08:18] So occupations are those meaningful tasks that occupy our time with meaning.

[00:08:24] Occupational therapy is the rehabilitative aspect where if there's a deficit or injury or diagnoses and there's a discontinuation of participation in those tasks, then we help you with strength.

[00:08:38] We help you with the cognitive processes to be able to motor plan how to complete those things and et cetera.

[00:08:43] Now the science piece, occupational science is the study of occupations, how we participate in different occupations, the different cultures that have occupations that are different and various or those that we share with another culture.

[00:08:57] And so the science aspect just gives us more foundation and grounding in what we do as people worldwide and how we can use that to further feed into the therapy aspect to push the profession forward.

[00:09:10] What's an example, a real world example of someone who's receiving occupational therapy?

[00:09:17] Someone post stroke, CPA, lost strength and endurance on one side.

[00:09:22] So hemiparesis or total paralysis.

[00:09:25] And so we will have the individual after completing an evaluation participate in strengthening tasks, relearning task or either adapting or compensating and using the eye to eye.

[00:09:38] Or I'm compensating and using the opposite side in order for them to be able to be independent or as independent as possible.

[00:09:47] Go ahead, man.

[00:09:48] It's a sort of in conjunction with physical therapy, right?

[00:09:53] Physical therapy is actually getting your body right.

[00:09:55] Occupational therapy is sort of like getting your life right.

[00:09:58] Yes. So what I like to tell specifically students when they're trying to figure out if they want to do PT versus OT physical therapy is in short term.

[00:10:08] So all my PT friends don't come after me.

[00:10:12] PT is going to get you strong enough to do something and we are going to help you actually complete those steps to do something.

[00:10:19] So another example that I give for two potential students is physical therapy.

[00:10:24] Physical therapy will help you walk to the bathroom.

[00:10:27] Occupational therapy will help you use.

[00:10:29] Okay. All right.

[00:10:31] Well, both are important, I guess.

[00:10:33] Both are very important.

[00:10:34] But something to relate, you know, I would say to the younger generation, not that those in the younger generation will not or cannot suffer from a stroke or a cardiovascular accident or an aesthetic attack or something like that.

[00:10:49] I would say, God forbid, in a motor vehicle accident, there is a fracture to let's say the lower extremity of the leg or either the upper extremity.

[00:11:00] So the humerus is this bone here that connects to our shoulder and then our elbow is an aspect of the humerus as well.

[00:11:07] So if there's a fracture there in the humerus and over time, there's still weakness and maybe some numbness and tingling because there was also injury to maybe the median nerve with that humerus fracture.

[00:11:20] Then what we could do is let's say the individual who was in the motor vehicle accident with the DJ.

[00:11:25] Right.

[00:11:26] What we would do is we would have them participate in motor coordination.

[00:11:31] We would also work on some things to desensitize that tingling feeling so that they can actually feel the vinyl if they are old school, if they're more analog, if they're more digital and they're using the more electronic turntables, then we will just actually have them do that motion and movement so that we are regenerating the nerve a bit so that they can participate in that either hobby, which is meaningful for them or in that job that they are able to do.

[00:12:02] Right.

[00:12:03] Definitely. Like it doesn't have to be their job. That could be their catharsis, their therapy.

[00:12:08] I used to make beats when I was feeling low and I would make beats and that was important to me.

[00:12:12] And if I wasn't able to do that, you know, I would want someone to help me get back to that even though that wasn't the way I made my living.

[00:12:18] It was the way I made my peace.

[00:12:22] But I would also say with that, if you weren't able to DJ because it brings you some type of peace, some type of joy, how would you feel over time if you're not able to participate in that task?

[00:12:33] Right.

[00:12:35] That's where the OT comes in. We help with that shift in identity because then there's a shift and there's an interruption in the identity. I cannot participate as a DJ.

[00:12:45] I'm not who I was.

[00:12:47] Absolutely. And so then we have that's where that rehabilitation has to come in.

[00:12:52] But also allowing an individual to accept where they are so that healing can occur.

[00:12:59] Sometimes you can't be who you were, but there's a way to work with them.

[00:13:03] Absolutely.

[00:13:04] This is such an important, like you don't think about, you think about the physical therapy.

[00:13:09] You think about getting back and you see it all, you know, working on the walking on the things and underwater and all the ways you get back from a physical.

[00:13:16] And that's important. And that's a struggle.

[00:13:18] But just because you can get back to a physical semblance of your former self doesn't mean you get back to a, you know, a, I'm going to say spiritual, but like a nonphysical, mental and emotional way you were before.

[00:13:34] And this is what helps them.

[00:13:36] Yeah.

[00:13:37] I'm stumbling over the words, but you know what I'm trying to say?

[00:13:39] I do. That's also an aspect of occupational therapy.

[00:13:42] We look at the holistic, individual, so the mental, the emotional, the spiritual aspect, we do bring in the spiritual aspect according to the individual.

[00:13:50] So we don't get off for anything.

[00:13:53] Right.

[00:13:54] This is my spirituality and it's tied to my identity in this way.

[00:13:57] And so I would like to do this.

[00:13:59] Then that becomes an aspect of our intervention or their intervention plan because they actually stated that they would like words.

[00:14:05] Right.

[00:14:06] Yep. It all works together.

[00:14:08] And I guess that's a missing piece that is that without that, you know, people would have a much tougher time getting back from some of these things.

[00:14:15] So this was something you did.

[00:14:17] So you were doing this in practice for a while.

[00:14:20] Right.

[00:14:21] So how did you say what was it?

[00:14:24] Sort of the transition in your life to say, you know, say I want to I'm doing this, but I also want to, I guess, start teaching it or to start, you know, moving in that direction.

[00:14:34] Well, the opportunity was presented to me.

[00:14:36] I absolutely did not want to teach many.

[00:14:38] I had so many people come on and sell be like, I wouldn't even think about teaching, bro.

[00:14:42] But it's just no, I know.

[00:14:44] Right.

[00:14:45] I had a professor tell me when I was in the graduate program for my master's of an occupational therapy that I was going to teach.

[00:14:51] And I said, no, I'm going to retire as an occupational therapist in the field as a clinician.

[00:14:57] And Lord and behold, like I think two and a half years later, one of my professors, a different professor called me and asked me if I was interested in adjuncting for pediatric lab.

[00:15:10] And I was like, yeah, sure.

[00:15:14] What do I have to do?

[00:15:15] And she was like, exactly what you saw me do.

[00:15:17] And so I adjuncted for three semesters and a position became open and they asked for me to to apply.

[00:15:27] And I applied and I became the academic fair work coordinator as well as an assistant professor full time.

[00:15:33] So I transitioned from the hospital into academia.

[00:15:37] Right.

[00:15:38] A hundred percent.

[00:15:40] This was where?

[00:15:41] This was at Florida or?

[00:15:43] Yes, Florida A&M University.

[00:15:45] Yeah.

[00:15:46] And TMH, Telus Memorial Hospital.

[00:15:48] And I started working for Florida A&M.

[00:15:51] What was the you know, for those folks who might be listening, who might say, listen, I do a thing and now I might want to transition to being a teacher of that thing.

[00:16:01] You know, what was that briefly?

[00:16:03] I'm sure it was a wild time.

[00:16:05] You know, what are the takeaways from that transition?

[00:16:09] I would say be prepared for the next steps.

[00:16:14] You're going out thinking about it.

[00:16:15] How do you do?

[00:16:16] By performing the best that you can at each level, because that opportunity came to me because I was a good student.

[00:16:24] Per them, per them.

[00:16:26] I was just trying to try my best to get into a career where I could provide for my son and help my husband at the time.

[00:16:36] And they told me that I was a very bright student and they saw at that time, you know, some of the characteristics of a good professor.

[00:16:45] So I would say whatever, wherever you are, just do the best that you can.

[00:16:50] It's one of the four agreements.

[00:16:51] You know, always do your best.

[00:16:53] And so that's something that I would I would offer for those who may be thinking about trans transitioning, even if you don't like it, like where you are still do your best.

[00:17:01] So that those that may be in a position to offer you something better, they can.

[00:17:07] I would also say continue to be a life learner.

[00:17:10] I kept all of my books.

[00:17:12] I stayed abreast of the newest evidence because in health care we strive to be of evidence based practice or to implement evidence based practice as well as client centered care.

[00:17:24] And then being humble.

[00:17:26] Humility is big.

[00:17:28] Because when individuals can identify humility within within you or, you know, another individual, I feel like opportunity comes your way due to that.

[00:17:39] So be confident and have some pride about yourself, but also be humble enough to know that there's always more to learn in any situation and in any field.

[00:17:52] So that I feel like that's enough to get spotlight.

[00:17:55] So they can receive some of those opportunities they have.

[00:17:59] I'm glad they recognize it in you.

[00:18:01] Sometimes they don't recognize it in the right in the right field, but sometimes they do.

[00:18:04] Sometimes it works out.

[00:18:06] Yeah, very good.

[00:18:07] So what's the connection?

[00:18:11] You said somewhere that that the future of occupational therapy is hip hop.

[00:18:19] Absolutely.

[00:18:20] That right.

[00:18:21] I'm sorry.

[00:18:22] Quote.

[00:18:23] Well, the future of occupation is hip hop.

[00:18:25] OK, the future of occupation is hip hop.

[00:18:27] And that ties very closely into the field, obviously.

[00:18:31] So what is this magical combination is intersect because I love the intersections.

[00:18:36] You know me.

[00:18:37] That's all I talk about.

[00:18:38] It's exactly.

[00:18:39] You want to be a better plumber?

[00:18:40] Hip hop can make you be a better plumber.

[00:18:42] Let's talk about it.

[00:18:44] How does hip hop factor into the work you are doing?

[00:18:48] Because hip hop is in everything.

[00:18:52] So if occupation are activities that we participate in in order to live a meaningful life or or to.

[00:19:02] Reach life satisfaction, if hip hop isn't everything, hip hop brings us joy.

[00:19:07] And I'm not just speaking for me, I'm speaking for for you and conversations that we've had in other individuals, my students and other researchers.

[00:19:15] That have to embed hip hop culture and bring the positives to the light in the media about hip hop culture versus just what industry tends to push.

[00:19:25] Hip hop is in all of that.

[00:19:27] And so when I say the future of occupation is hip hop, I'm just saying that there's going to be more individuals like myself within the field of occupational science and occupational fear.

[00:19:36] People aren't afraid to present their hip hop sales.

[00:19:39] Right.

[00:19:40] I am stating that we are going to bring interventions that are centered or situated in hip hop.

[00:19:46] So if I am working with a kiddo that has sensory issues, sensory means that I have issues with maybe different textures.

[00:19:53] That's just an example.

[00:19:55] Why not do a phone graffiti wall?

[00:19:58] Just take some cream for a little food coloring in it.

[00:20:02] If there aren't any allergies to food coloring, right?

[00:20:05] Put it up on a board and have them play in that as if they are tagging a wall.

[00:20:11] You know, a word search cipher for those that have issues with visually scanning from left to right or right to left because that is going to interrupt how we participate in activities.

[00:20:22] A cipher is dope for that.

[00:20:25] Being able to dress yourself.

[00:20:27] So just giving them that fly girl, be boy style to throw on and button up to work on their fine motor strength and dexterity in order to be independent in dressing.

[00:20:39] We are coming.

[00:20:41] And when I say we, those within hip hop culture who identify with it and who state that we are hip hop identities are the future of this profession.

[00:20:49] So that's what I mean by the occupation is hip hop.

[00:20:52] There's going to be more occupational science research that includes hip hop, the different elements of hip hop, the different ways that hip hop has inspired individuals to participate in different tasks as well as the therapy aspect from the examples that I gave previously.

[00:21:07] So that's what I mean with that very provocative stance that the future of occupation is hip hop because it is.

[00:21:14] You want a show called Hip Hop Can Save America?

[00:21:16] We all about provocative statements over here.

[00:21:21] I wrote two things down.

[00:21:23] One is I want to go back the second thing second.

[00:21:26] So I want to find out sort of what that research looks like.

[00:21:29] What as you say, there's more people coming in.

[00:21:31] You've been doing your research as well.

[00:21:33] But we'll come to that in a second.

[00:21:36] Just the thought that popped into my head was, you know, we talked so many times.

[00:21:40] You mentioned Dr.

[00:21:41] Betina Love.

[00:21:42] One of the great lessons I learned from her was the idea that hip hop gives especially young people who don't always have agency, right?

[00:21:52] Don't always have the feeling of being seen and heard a way to be seen and heard.

[00:22:00] That's what hip hop was.

[00:22:01] It was all of the elements, the graffiti, the tagging on the on the trains was they think I'm nobody.

[00:22:09] Right.

[00:22:10] Nobody's left us for dead.

[00:22:12] But I'm going to design this this this this art piece with my name in a way that nobody else does.

[00:22:19] And you won't know it's me.

[00:22:20] So I'm establishing myself as someone.

[00:22:23] I am someone.

[00:22:24] And this is my representation of who I am and the DJ, the MC, all the other folks, the breakers all did that same kind of I'm establishing myself.

[00:22:33] What Dr.

[00:22:35] Betina Love always stresses is that we know how to do that inherently in hip hop.

[00:22:39] Right.

[00:22:40] And again, also in other cultures, in black culture and in immigrant culture, like just kind of like the getting we fit in, make a dollar out of 15 cents, that hustle mentality.

[00:22:50] But we don't always know that that's what we're doing.

[00:22:53] They don't always know that that's what they're doing, that they're doing social emotional intelligence, that they're doing all these things that now are buzzwords in education or in medical settings.

[00:23:02] That it's just something inherent in folks who look at the world through a sort of hip hop, creative anti-establishment, whatever lens.

[00:23:09] And what you're saying here is like you're showing folks who have this need to kind of get back to a place of comfort in their life through some sort of trauma.

[00:23:22] You're saying we're going to use the same the same techniques.

[00:23:26] Right.

[00:23:27] Right.

[00:23:28] The same kind of things that all these young people found a way to like be someone and come back to the world and be a part of the world that they had been pushed away from.

[00:23:38] Is that the parallel I'm seeing here?

[00:23:40] I hope I'm establishing this right.

[00:23:42] But yeah, for me, yes, because particularly within the field of occupational science and occupational therapy is predominantly white female.

[00:23:51] And so when you have an individual like myself going to conferences or if I am applying for a job and there's a panel for the for the interview and I am the only person of color on that panel, then it feels a bit isolate.

[00:24:06] Of course.

[00:24:07] That's actually one of the occupational injustices is isolation.

[00:24:11] Part of one of the injustices is isolation.

[00:24:13] And so how do I create belonging for myself?

[00:24:16] I tag something.

[00:24:18] How do I tag something?

[00:24:19] I put it in my presentation.

[00:24:21] I say that I'm the dope slang and OT or I will present a poem before my presentation that states that I'm a dope sling.

[00:24:29] But dope is a metaphor for fresh, for innovative, for different, for great, you know, versus what will come to your mind.

[00:24:37] You're as in the white female population, particularly in my experience when I say dope, it makes me negative.

[00:24:44] So let me make it positive.

[00:24:47] I know a student who was an undergrad at FAMU, but now she's a student at a very prominent PWI.

[00:24:55] And she has created she wrote a paper on hip hop as a space or an aspect for belonging because now she feels ostracized.

[00:25:04] She feels pushed to the margins because she was at an institution where her culture was embedded within.

[00:25:11] But she's at an institution where she doesn't feel like she she fits in and she's homesick and she wants to bring herself back to the state of Florida.

[00:25:18] However, by writing that paper, including hip hop culture as a space for belonging is her saying, hey, I need you to see me because she has to turn that paper in.

[00:25:29] Right. Her instructor or professor has to read that paper and that's going to help them see her better.

[00:25:35] So she's using hip hop as a way to be seen, just like you said about the graffiti artists.

[00:25:40] So yes, it is the same parallel is the future of occupation.

[00:25:45] It's hip hop because you all have refused even not on even if it's not on purpose, you have refused to shed a light on me.

[00:25:53] So I'm going to make sure that I turn on this light switch for myself using one of the dopest things in the world.

[00:26:00] And that is hip hop. Right. Indeed.

[00:26:03] All right. I like it.

[00:26:04] Makes sense to me. I make sense to me.

[00:26:06] It just seems like it just makes sense.

[00:26:08] But I don't know. They don't seem they don't seem to think it makes sense sometimes, but it makes sense to us.

[00:26:13] Right. Because we because it's a part of our identity and we get it.

[00:26:17] But what I what I love about what you do and what you continue to do is just push the positivity in hip hop because that's so important.

[00:26:26] And I feel like majority of media, majority of communications is just pushing that very narrow perspective of hip hop.

[00:26:38] I heard you earlier talking about the P rap and it's very gangsterized and misogynistic and just the different aspects of hip hop culture that influence in a negative way.

[00:26:50] And that's what they see because we feed on drama.

[00:26:52] So it's the negative, the negative aspect versus how hip hop has saved lives, how hip hop can save America, how hip hop is allowing a student who now feels pushed to the margins to belong in a place.

[00:27:08] You know, and so those things need to be brought to the forefront.

[00:27:11] And that is what you are doing.

[00:27:13] And I appreciate that. I appreciate that appreciation.

[00:27:16] It's only because people like you doing the work.

[00:27:19] I've said this before. If I wouldn't have anything to talk about, I was like, trust me.

[00:27:23] You don't have to trust me. We have the receipts.

[00:27:27] So with that said, what are some of the ideas or what is the industry as a whole?

[00:27:32] Right. Need to you touched on it a little bit.

[00:27:34] You know, again, presenting that paper lets the instructor lets that institution see, oh, we might be missing something here.

[00:27:41] You know, we've heard so many things in the health spectrum, you know, of, you know, whether it's racial biases affecting diagnoses.

[00:27:54] Right. Or, you know, all kind of things that have cropped up there.

[00:27:58] I just saw this thing today where some tens of thousands of women, maybe not women, but tens of thousands of black folk couldn't get a kidney transplant.

[00:28:09] You see this news? This was just breaking.

[00:28:11] Kid didn't get a kidney transplant because there was a racially biased organ checklist test that happened.

[00:28:20] And so now they're bumping up tens of thousands of people who were previously pushed down on the on the kidney transplant wait list.

[00:28:30] Now, this is personally just an aside.

[00:28:33] I actually donated a kidney.

[00:28:37] I don't know if you know this, but, you know, fun facts to anyone watching.

[00:28:40] I'm a living kidney donor.

[00:28:42] I donated to my daughter almost five years ago this April.

[00:28:47] This actually is the tattoo that signifies this April 25th and 2019 to my daughter, who's black.

[00:28:54] Right. Because she mixed because, you know, she she's on the waiting list.

[00:29:00] But this is a very personal situation where tens of thousands of people because of a racially biased test or some kind of checklist.

[00:29:08] I didn't get the whole story, so I'm paraphrasing.

[00:29:11] So we see this across the board and they say, oh, you know, why do you bring up the race card?

[00:29:16] Because someone didn't get a kidney last year.

[00:29:18] Now today, because of something where there's racial bias in the health care field, as you just mentioned, in the occupational therapy field, this is not immune to it.

[00:29:28] So hip hop is being an equalizer of some sort.

[00:29:32] You know, we've seen in the education space hip hop is saying, listen, you know, it can help everybody.

[00:29:36] Right. Everyone. First of all, everyone loves hip hop.

[00:29:38] The techniques that he used in hip hop education can help white kids in Idaho in the middle of, you know, rural somewhere.

[00:29:43] But it can most benefit those who have been traditionally underserved under resourced and under loved by, you know, generally a sort of white supremacist society.

[00:29:53] What does your industry need to do to ensure that folks like yourself are helping as many people as possible in the most efficient way?

[00:30:03] What are the hindrances? What are the roadblocks? What are you doing?

[00:30:06] What's the research? What's the just for your industry moving forward?

[00:30:13] Big question is listen to a black indigenous people of color.

[00:30:18] Don't just always states feel that somebody's pulling the race card.

[00:30:23] That's not necessarily true.

[00:30:24] There is a good amount of research that is speaking to biases within the practice of medicine as well as practice of health care, because like occupational therapy, physical therapy, nursing, et cetera, may be a part of allied health.

[00:30:39] At times, nursing is typically or in most instances it stands alone.

[00:30:44] But then you have medicine, the field of medicine, and that would be your physicians.

[00:30:49] So if you're MDs, your DLs, PAs, nurse practitioners, et cetera.

[00:30:54] And so listen and pay attention to the fact that a lot of the medical science that was produced, the seminal work was very racially biased.

[00:31:07] And we are still to this day taking the time to conduct other or new contemporary research in order to deconstruct some of those things that were established before.

[00:31:20] And so with those things being established before things as in thoughts, theories, stigmas, that takes a while to break down.

[00:31:28] And so you have to listen to the individual regardless of what the research may say.

[00:31:34] I'm not saying to completely ignore the research.

[00:31:37] You take that information and also pay attention and be very mindful to what the individual is stating in front of you.

[00:31:44] Help them from there.

[00:31:46] If this individual presents something that you've never seen before, I would say take the next step to research more about maybe their blood type or where they may come from.

[00:31:56] Ask them if they know anything about their primitive tribe.

[00:32:00] And when I say primitive, as far back as they can tell you, because that may give you a little bit more information on how to intervene with the issues that have arose that are causing the deficits and the, you know, the discontinuation in performance and improvement.

[00:32:20] And so I would say to just listen to the person that's in front of you.

[00:32:25] Also, try to look at things from the individual's perspective.

[00:32:30] Do your research. Watch documentaries.

[00:32:32] If you were talking about documentaries earlier about individuals who are with a hip hop culture, whether black, brown, Asian, what have you, just pay attention to these things so that you can learn more about it.

[00:32:46] Watch the Freaknik documentary.

[00:32:49] Just an example, watch the Freaknik documentary.

[00:32:51] An understanding of why a group of poor college students who couldn't travel started something and how that blew up into a cultural phenomenon.

[00:33:03] And yes, it was shut down, but just pay attention to how powerful those individuals were because they had very little.

[00:33:10] It's just paying attention to the people that are in front of us versus just solely relying on the research and the book information because typically research and books are written from the dominant gates.

[00:33:22] Yeah.

[00:33:23] Dominant being traditional Eurocentric view.

[00:33:26] And so with that being said, we have to, things aren't getting better, but it doesn't mean that there isn't more work that needs to be done.

[00:33:34] There is a lot of work that needs to be done for us to continue to break down these walls.

[00:33:38] So in closing the loop on my response is basically listen to folks that are just relying on the research because a lot of times it doesn't involve a good number or good sample of people of color.

[00:33:52] Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:53] Black folks.

[00:33:54] Black and black folks. So what we're, what we're using to intervene on their behalf, they weren't involved in it.

[00:34:00] And so it doesn't, it's not best fit or may not be best fit.

[00:34:05] But also being mindful about another perspective and try to consider that perspective because at times we can't see things from another person's perspective, but we can consider it.

[00:34:15] So those are, those are my recommendations.

[00:34:18] Yeah. Do you think that would be one of the tenets of being in healthcare to begin with? Right.

[00:34:24] Yeah, we get in college.

[00:34:28] Healthcare is a tough field.

[00:34:31] There's the healthcare.

[00:34:32] Yeah, it's a tough field and there's a lot of, you know, there's often a lot of politics overworking and people just don't get the time to kind of expand their mind.

[00:34:39] They're just doing the job and getting it done.

[00:34:41] Yeah.

[00:34:42] Yeah, just a quick example is we have ADLs and IDLs. ADLs are activities of daily living.

[00:34:49] ADLs are instrumental activities of daily living.

[00:34:52] Okay.

[00:34:53] ADLs are more basic. So like I mentioned earlier, that would be your grooming tasks, brushing your hair, brushing your teeth, washing your face, eating.

[00:35:00] But cooking a meal requires more tasks. So that's going to be an IDL.

[00:35:04] Driving a car is going to be a more complex task. It has more steps, takes more cotton processing.

[00:35:10] And so that's going to be an IDL. Sex is an ADL. It's basic. Right?

[00:35:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:16] There was a student...

[00:35:18] I like to be very complicated with my sex. So it's probably a... Okay.

[00:35:21] You know, that's fine. But it's still on the humanistic level.

[00:35:25] All right. Fine.

[00:35:26] It's a basic need. Right?

[00:35:27] Whatever. Fine. Just...

[00:35:29] And so there was a student who was interested in sex therapy as an occupational therapist.

[00:35:36] And I remember the director...

[00:35:41] There's a director that shut her down. And this was maybe about eight years ago.

[00:35:46] This director shut her down and told her that that wasn't appropriate and it was too niche.

[00:35:51] Manny, I'll tell you today. There are multiple sex OTs.

[00:35:57] Okay.

[00:35:58] And there are multiple on Instagram. You have pelvic floor occupational therapists.

[00:36:03] You have pelvic floor physical therapists as well.

[00:36:05] And those are individuals that go in and make sure that the musculature is working properly for using the bathroom, but also to engage in sex.

[00:36:16] So I just feel like we have to be more open-minded with progressing.

[00:36:23] And I feel like if it would have came from a student that was not necessarily a black student or a student of color, that it would have been received better.

[00:36:33] Right? It wasn't.

[00:36:34] Yeah.

[00:36:35] My theory is that it's because it came from someone that looked like her.

[00:36:39] So we just have to be more open and not shut down individuals that have these innovative right ideas because of what has already been established.

[00:36:48] I hear you 100%.

[00:36:50] I think all the innovation comes from these communities and these folks and brilliant folks.

[00:36:54] There's brilliance abounds.

[00:36:56] And it's... You do your cause a great disservice to ignore it or to pay little attention to it.

[00:37:01] Real quick, Ada Johnson's Miss Thursday harmonica is very much in the health care field.

[00:37:09] So she's been tuned in and turned up in the whole comments section.

[00:37:12] You'll see it afterwards.

[00:37:13] I guess has been very engaged and she's a good friend of the show.

[00:37:15] She said she worked in a rehab facility and used hip hop to help her patients when possible.

[00:37:19] I work with my OT to help a patient use graffiti with fine motor skills.

[00:37:23] So again, some...

[00:37:24] Oh, Ada.

[00:37:25] Yeah.

[00:37:26] That is so dope.

[00:37:27] See, that's what I mean.

[00:37:28] There are individuals out here that are doing this, but there's no one writing on it because...

[00:37:33] Right.

[00:37:34] Searches and scholars that will say or academics that will say that it's not rigorous.

[00:37:38] Right.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:40] How...

[00:37:41] I just...

[00:37:42] I don't understand what you mean.

[00:37:43] You're taking the aspects of culture that has been under research.

[00:37:47] There's not enough literature about it within our field, within our field.

[00:37:53] That...

[00:37:54] I mean, we need to fill in the gaps.

[00:37:55] That's what we do as researchers.

[00:37:56] That's what scholars...

[00:37:57] Right.

[00:37:58] So go ahead, finish your thought.

[00:37:59] No, no, finish your thought.

[00:38:00] Yeah.

[00:38:01] Amen to Ada.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:03] That's dope.

[00:38:04] Yeah.

[00:38:05] So as we start to close out, I want to keep you all night.

[00:38:07] I know it's getting late in Florida, same as me.

[00:38:10] It's not late.

[00:38:11] Let me try it.

[00:38:12] But you might have...

[00:38:13] Are you teaching this week?

[00:38:14] Are you on break?

[00:38:15] What's going on?

[00:38:16] No, I'm teaching.

[00:38:17] I have class tomorrow.

[00:38:18] Oh, okay.

[00:38:19] Well, you know, we are on break out here in Georgia.

[00:38:20] My daughter is off.

[00:38:21] I figured everyone is off.

[00:38:22] Spring break.

[00:38:23] We had spring break two weeks ago.

[00:38:24] Wow.

[00:38:25] So y'all, y'all, y'all...

[00:38:26] Because in Florida everything is advanced.

[00:38:27] Everything's hotter earlier and I don't mean advanced in a good way.

[00:38:28] I just mean quicker.

[00:38:29] Yeah, probably, yeah.

[00:38:30] Yeah, like it's hotter, quicker.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:32] I'm still getting used to Georgia.

[00:38:33] You know I'm from New York.

[00:38:34] So I don't understand any of this weather, these patterns.

[00:38:35] I don't...

[00:38:36] These bugs.

[00:38:37] I don't...

[00:38:38] I'm still getting used to Georgia.

[00:38:39] It's been a week or two.

[00:38:40] I don't know how long it's been, how long it's been.

[00:38:41] But I don't know the exact time.

[00:38:42] Yeah.

[00:38:43] It's been a week or two.

[00:38:44] It's been a week or two.

[00:38:45] It's been a week or two.

[00:38:46] I don't understand any of this weather, these patterns,

[00:38:50] these bugs.

[00:38:52] I'm still getting used to it all.

[00:38:55] So not to keep you up all night,

[00:38:57] but so what are the kind of things that you personally,

[00:39:00] we talked about the industry as a whole,

[00:39:02] trying to listen to people, obviously that cultural,

[00:39:04] it's the same thing as education, right?

[00:39:05] The culturally responsive, culturally affirming pedagogy

[00:39:10] that we talk about with hip hop all the time

[00:39:12] in the education space.

[00:39:14] Same thing, just know who you dealing with,

[00:39:16] know your folk, know who you're dealing with.

[00:39:18] Understand that connecting culturally

[00:39:20] is gonna just give you a better camaraderie first off.

[00:39:23] We talk about doctors.

[00:39:24] I have a good friend who's a doctor,

[00:39:26] emergency trauma surgeon actually,

[00:39:28] one of my best friends, brother from another mother.

[00:39:31] And I talked to him all the time

[00:39:32] about hip hop and all these intersections

[00:39:34] and he's like, ah, I'm like, let me tell you something.

[00:39:38] You deal with people, like your customer service.

[00:39:44] You talk to people, you have to deal with the public.

[00:39:47] And if you could just connect a little bit better

[00:39:49] to somebody and their culture

[00:39:51] and how they see the world,

[00:39:52] they might open up to you a little bit better.

[00:39:54] You gonna get a better response

[00:39:55] and then they're gonna be a little bit more truthful

[00:39:57] with you, they're gonna be a little bit more open with you.

[00:40:00] This is what mental health therapists do

[00:40:02] when they say I bring hip hop into the mix.

[00:40:05] We talk to folks all the time.

[00:40:06] So it all makes sense.

[00:40:08] It does, yeah.

[00:40:10] Quick story.

[00:40:14] Young man came in with a gunshot wound,

[00:40:16] he was at the club,

[00:40:18] smell of light flowers when he came in.

[00:40:20] I mean, I swear he was one of my cousins.

[00:40:23] And so I went in talking with my,

[00:40:27] I would say with my home vernacular,

[00:40:29] my home tone, what up, how you doing, bro?

[00:40:31] What's going on?

[00:40:31] You know, what happened?

[00:40:32] He like, I can't tell you what happened.

[00:40:34] What you need?

[00:40:35] And I said, well, the physician asked me to come in here

[00:40:38] and see you, I'm not a patient with therapist.

[00:40:39] I explained what it was.

[00:40:41] But the way that I talked to him,

[00:40:43] that I spoke to him was at his level

[00:40:46] because it's like I see you.

[00:40:49] Because I did.

[00:40:51] There was no judgment.

[00:40:52] I was actually a lot more comfortable in his room

[00:40:54] than I had been in any other room

[00:40:55] because he was being that way.

[00:40:57] That's before I transitioned into academia.

[00:41:01] And when I tell you that he gave everybody

[00:41:04] H.U. double hockey sticks,

[00:41:05] except for me and my home girl,

[00:41:08] she's a physical therapist.

[00:41:09] We incorporate hip hop identity.

[00:41:11] He was waiting for us to come.

[00:41:13] The nurses would call,

[00:41:14] hey, can you come and work with so-and-so?

[00:41:17] We like, wow, we just saw him.

[00:41:18] Well, he won't listen to us.

[00:41:19] That's because y'all not, you have to see him.

[00:41:21] You're not seeing him for who he is.

[00:41:23] You're judging him because he smells like flowers.

[00:41:27] And I mean, he had lops, so it's in his hair.

[00:41:29] Sure, I get it.

[00:41:30] And because of what the words that he's using,

[00:41:32] he's still a human being.

[00:41:34] 100%.

[00:41:35] I'm like a human being.

[00:41:36] Y'all gonna be good.

[00:41:38] Yeah, so you gotta meet people where they are,

[00:41:41] which is that reality in the education field,

[00:41:45] reality pedagogy that Christopher Endon

[00:41:46] was talking about a while ago.

[00:41:48] So anyway, meet people where they are.

[00:41:50] And that was one of my favorite stories,

[00:41:53] which showed me that I could use that aspect of me

[00:41:56] to be therapeutic.

[00:41:57] And in our field of therapy,

[00:41:58] we call it therapeutic use of self.

[00:42:00] You use aspects of who you are to establish rapport,

[00:42:05] to assist with morale with the individual

[00:42:08] that you're working with.

[00:42:09] So if we all did that, come on.

[00:42:12] So therapeutic use of self.

[00:42:14] See what I'm saying?

[00:42:15] We do these things inherently.

[00:42:17] We didn't know how to tell you what we do.

[00:42:20] Right.

[00:42:21] But these are the words that make sense out of it.

[00:42:23] Yeah.

[00:42:24] Yeah, and I actually in presenting,

[00:42:26] and in my papers, I'm writing that

[00:42:29] that's related to the fifth element that Kiara is stating.

[00:42:32] Sure, that was the self.

[00:42:33] You know who you are,

[00:42:35] you know how to use aspects of who you are

[00:42:38] to relate to somebody else.

[00:42:39] That's all that is.

[00:42:40] That's right, real, recognized, real.

[00:42:42] Absolutely.

[00:42:43] You know what it is.

[00:42:44] That's what's up.

[00:42:45] So these are the things you're looking into

[00:42:46] as a researcher, I guess I would imagine.

[00:42:49] When you say you present, you talk,

[00:42:51] we'll close it out on this.

[00:42:52] What are kind of the, I guess all of this, right?

[00:42:55] Is what you wanna kinda look at

[00:42:57] and how do you look at it from a researcher lens?

[00:43:00] Like what do I, if I'm the great Dr. Gian Jones,

[00:43:04] what do I have to, how do I have to look at this?

[00:43:07] What do I have to, how do I have to put this together?

[00:43:09] What are the presentations I'm doing

[00:43:11] to try to make this more,

[00:43:15] just more understandable, more prevalent in the field?

[00:43:18] So operationalizing how I use hip hop culture

[00:43:21] within the field.

[00:43:22] Yeah.

[00:43:23] Sways, and so from the, I would say,

[00:43:26] the academic field work coordinator,

[00:43:27] that's the individual that places students,

[00:43:29] the OT students within their field works.

[00:43:32] I am utilizing hip hop themes for self-determination,

[00:43:36] like I mentioned earlier, or for self-reflection.

[00:43:39] While on field work, which is their internship,

[00:43:42] they have to do a weekly reflection

[00:43:44] just explaining how the week went.

[00:43:46] They have to establish goals

[00:43:48] and they also have to report back on the goals

[00:43:50] that they established the week prior.

[00:43:52] Well, in two separate field work rotations,

[00:43:57] one I use it, I used Loaded Bases,

[00:43:59] which is from our late great Nipsey Hussle

[00:44:03] and they had to use an acronym titled LOAD

[00:44:06] to help them plan for goals.

[00:44:08] And that was attached to self-determination,

[00:44:10] but I also use Outkast themed journal prompts,

[00:44:15] SpeakerBots versus the Love Below.

[00:44:17] So SpeakerBots is your amplifying great things

[00:44:19] about the week and what you're gonna continue

[00:44:22] in order to reach your goals.

[00:44:24] And then the Love Below is something that you love,

[00:44:27] but you didn't focus too much on

[00:44:29] that you would like to incorporate

[00:44:32] as you continue to improve performance.

[00:44:34] And also just reporting back on how those reflections

[00:44:39] help the student reach the end of those rotations

[00:44:41] in order to be successful and to graduate

[00:44:44] because they have to complete four.

[00:44:46] I've also looked from the community aspect

[00:44:50] at Street Identified Labor through,

[00:44:55] I would say exploring Young Jeezy's

[00:44:59] the Motivation 101 album

[00:45:01] and how we relate to that album,

[00:45:04] but use aspects of what he's talking about

[00:45:07] in a different way.

[00:45:08] So if he's talking about, you know, stack and dough,

[00:45:10] how do we do that?

[00:45:11] How do we use that as motivation?

[00:45:14] Even though we may not be participating

[00:45:16] in a Street Identified Labor,

[00:45:17] how do we use his storytelling within our role

[00:45:23] of a worker in order to receive compensation?

[00:45:26] So that is operationalizing occupational status.

[00:45:31] How do I move from one occupational status,

[00:45:33] which could be, you know,

[00:45:35] poverty or low social economic to higher middle class?

[00:45:39] So those are three ways that I operationalize

[00:45:43] the use of hip hop culture.

[00:45:44] And then lastly, I would state

[00:45:48] just exploring the benefits of using a hip hop case study

[00:45:53] for students to learn how to implement

[00:45:56] different intervention strategies.

[00:45:58] And so I've used J Dilla and you know,

[00:46:00] some of his diagnoses that he had to navigate

[00:46:03] before the end of his life.

[00:46:05] And the students actually had to fit him

[00:46:07] for a wheelchair so that he can complete

[00:46:09] his tour in Europe.

[00:46:11] And so asking the students how did that assist them

[00:46:14] in becoming competent and increasing their self-efficacy

[00:46:18] and fitting an individual for a wheelchair

[00:46:20] or prescribing an individual for a wheelchair.

[00:46:23] And I got a, you know, unanimous response

[00:46:25] of it was 100% needed.

[00:46:28] It made me feel like I was incorporated

[00:46:32] into the class, into the syllabus,

[00:46:35] into this assignment.

[00:46:36] I felt seen, just different things like that.

[00:46:38] So those are some ways that I've operationalized

[00:46:42] hip hop culture or aspects of hip hop within assignments,

[00:46:46] but also taking that date, you know,

[00:46:48] using that as data in order to let the people know

[00:46:52] that the future of occupation is hip hop.

[00:46:56] You're so brilliant.

[00:46:57] I can't, I just can't.

[00:47:00] I just, you blow me away every time we talk.

[00:47:03] And when I first saw you present

[00:47:05] and when you talked about like,

[00:47:06] you just come with your natural self

[00:47:09] and just blowing people's minds with, you know,

[00:47:12] with all you're talking.

[00:47:14] This is what I'm talking about, your textbook.

[00:47:16] Your textbook example of why hip hop could save America.

[00:47:20] And I'm so glad we had this talk.

[00:47:21] It's long overdue.

[00:47:22] I really do thank you for your time.

[00:47:24] We'll finish up.

[00:47:25] I'll ask you the question that I ask most folks

[00:47:28] that come through the show.

[00:47:30] We've talked, so you already know my impetus

[00:47:32] for naming this show, this lofty idea,

[00:47:36] as provocative as your statement is

[00:47:38] that hip hop can save America.

[00:47:40] What comes to your mind when you hear that,

[00:47:42] when you've heard that, when you first came across that,

[00:47:45] that saying, that mantra, that iconic logo

[00:47:48] that I designed myself?

[00:47:50] Thank you very much.

[00:47:51] What's your thought process

[00:47:52] when we say hip hop could save America?

[00:47:56] Hip hop can save an America by keeping America alive.

[00:48:00] That's what's happening.

[00:48:01] That's what I saw, or that's what I thought of

[00:48:03] when I first ran across your podcast

[00:48:07] is keeping America alive.

[00:48:10] Black culture, people of color that have,

[00:48:15] I would say, influence, inspired,

[00:48:19] was a part of the inception of hip hop

[00:48:22] is why this country is,

[00:48:25] is a reason why this country is,

[00:48:29] this is very provocative and a strong statement.

[00:48:32] And I don't have any evidence

[00:48:34] that I can actually cite right now,

[00:48:35] but I'm pretty sure I can find it.

[00:48:39] It's a reason why the industry

[00:48:42] and different industries are what they are.

[00:48:44] Hip hop is within the automobile industry.

[00:48:46] Hip hop is all up and through music.

[00:48:49] I mean, every new soundtrack to me

[00:48:52] has some aspect of hip hop or blues,

[00:48:55] which is a stem of hip hop.

[00:48:58] So when I saw hip hop could save America,

[00:49:01] I just immediately thought that hip hop

[00:49:04] is a huge reason why America is still here.

[00:49:07] From some politics, people are conversing about hip hop

[00:49:11] and just keeping those conversations alive,

[00:49:13] negative or positive.

[00:49:16] Beyonce just dropped an album

[00:49:18] and there's a conversation about Jay-Z

[00:49:22] and everyone is circulating around this one album.

[00:49:26] It's like the country in the globe stops.

[00:49:30] So hip hop can save America because it already has

[00:49:35] and it continues to, even though it doesn't get the credit.

[00:49:40] Well, well, well, Preece.

[00:49:43] And I hope that we, you especially, me secondarily

[00:49:48] continue to get the credit for the work you're doing

[00:49:50] in bridging these gaps, in these intersections

[00:49:54] that are quite clearly just from your testimony tonight,

[00:50:00] helping people in a way that wouldn't have been possible

[00:50:05] were it not for you personally

[00:50:07] and were it not for your combined cultures.

[00:50:10] Obviously your black identity,

[00:50:14] your Southern girl identity and your hip hop identity,

[00:50:17] but the perfect storm, the best of all those worlds

[00:50:20] is what I see in you

[00:50:21] and the work that you do is testimony to that.

[00:50:24] And I hope that it continues

[00:50:26] and I hope I can support it every which way possible

[00:50:28] from here until the end of time.

[00:50:30] I appreciate that meaning

[00:50:32] and I'm looking forward to us working together more.

[00:50:35] Yeah, yeah, 100%.

[00:50:36] I'm right down the block, you know what it is?

[00:50:38] You in Atlanta, I didn't necessarily promise you

[00:50:43] something, but in a way I did

[00:50:44] and I am still working on that.

[00:50:46] Stealth One is Stealth One.

[00:50:47] Okay.

[00:50:48] After Stealth One, which is a pilot

[00:50:51] that got some small funding,

[00:50:55] there's a larger one coming up

[00:50:57] that I'm applying for granted stuff.

[00:51:00] So I'm gonna keep true because it incorporates hip hop

[00:51:04] and if it incorporates hip hop, then I need a DJ.

[00:51:07] So anyway, I look forward to what we will do

[00:51:12] in the future.

[00:51:13] I am, as in the words of the great big daddy Kane,

[00:51:16] I'm ready, willing and able.

[00:51:18] R-A-W, ready, able and willing.

[00:51:21] I don't know, whatever.

[00:51:22] R-A-W, I'm here for you.

[00:51:25] So I appreciate your time.

[00:51:26] Anything coming up,

[00:51:27] anything you want the people to know about,

[00:51:29] what do you got coming on?

[00:51:30] Anything you need the people to know?

[00:51:31] And I can reach you on the socials

[00:51:33] and all the end of the interview type stuff

[00:51:35] that we not gonna say.

[00:51:36] Absolutely.

[00:51:38] So I could be reached or even be reached

[00:51:41] so I could be reached or you can check me out.

[00:51:44] Gion Jones.com is J-I-A-N Jones.com.

[00:51:49] I made it, I made it.

[00:51:50] So you say your name like a Marvel superhero.

[00:51:52] You know that right?

[00:51:53] Like, it's always like Peter Parker or John Jones.

[00:51:58] Like, you know, yeah.

[00:52:00] Thank you for that.

[00:52:01] You know, I needed that.

[00:52:03] You're my superhero.

[00:52:04] You're my hip hop superhero.

[00:52:06] But you're the one that's called Manny Faces

[00:52:10] like a superhero.

[00:52:11] We're not gonna talk about where it came from.

[00:52:13] I don't want no copyright.

[00:52:14] I don't want no IP infringement

[00:52:16] trademark situations happening.

[00:52:19] But yeah.

[00:52:20] But on Instagram, I am itsitsgionjones.

[00:52:25] I'm also the hip hop OT.

[00:52:27] So that's the period hip hop period OT.

[00:52:31] And then, I mean,

[00:52:33] you could just reach out to me on there.

[00:52:35] Anything that's coming up.

[00:52:36] Well, it's poetry month.

[00:52:37] So I'm doing a bunch of poetry.

[00:52:40] Oh yeah, that's right.

[00:52:41] We didn't get into that.

[00:52:42] You had a wonderful piece on your Instagram.

[00:52:44] Where's that piece that you had in parts?

[00:52:47] Three parts.

[00:52:48] Where does that live?

[00:52:49] Cause that was fantastic.

[00:52:50] But I needed to see it in its entirety.

[00:52:52] Where can we see this?

[00:52:53] So it's on Instagram,

[00:52:55] but I am going to the whole poem on YouTube

[00:53:00] as well as IG.

[00:53:02] But IG made me break it up.

[00:53:04] And so I got part one through part two.

[00:53:05] They won't let you be great, IG.

[00:53:07] They not let us be, I know.

[00:53:08] We good, but we can't be great.

[00:53:11] I know they used to let you post like a five minute reel,

[00:53:15] but they don't anymore.

[00:53:16] So, or at least I don't know how to do it anyway.

[00:53:19] Moving on, it will be on Instagram.

[00:53:21] But the name of that piece is So Join Her Truth.

[00:53:24] And that is the womanifesto that is the anchor

[00:53:29] to the text that I'm writing.

[00:53:30] It's an academic text and it's titled So Join Her Truth.

[00:53:34] Occupational Injustices of the Fem C and How She Wrapped Back.

[00:53:38] So it's basically posing So Join Her Truth

[00:53:41] as the Fem C archetype.

[00:53:43] And instead of stating or giving the speech,

[00:53:46] Ain't I a Woman, she's rapping Ain't I a Woman

[00:53:49] and her audience at the woman's convention

[00:53:51] isn't a room of white women.

[00:53:54] It is a room of Fem Cs, all the Fem Cs you know.

[00:53:57] And the one that took the charge very heavily,

[00:54:00] I heard you mention her earlier was Rhapsody,

[00:54:03] when she was crying.

[00:54:05] In this dream that I had,

[00:54:06] this was the actual dream that I had.

[00:54:07] And so I am writing that text on how the Fem C

[00:54:11] has continued to advocate against occupational injustices

[00:54:15] of women in general, but how at the end,

[00:54:20] Rhapsody being so moved created her album E

[00:54:24] for feminist hip hop album.

[00:54:26] And so I go to juxtapose lines in So Join Her Truth

[00:54:30] speech Ain't I a Woman to lyrics on Rhapsody's album.

[00:54:33] So So Join Her Truth, Occupational Injustices of the Fem C

[00:54:36] and how she rapped back will hopefully be available

[00:54:40] at the end of the year or the beginning of 25

[00:54:42] because you have to get a contract

[00:54:45] and all that good stuff.

[00:54:46] Yeah.

[00:54:46] So yeah, the piece, So Join Her Truth.

[00:54:50] There's gonna be a whole book.

[00:54:51] See I'm trying to write a book

[00:54:52] and I get jealous of people that like write books

[00:54:55] and then you tell me you write in this book

[00:54:57] and I'm like well, then my book is stupid compared.

[00:55:00] That was stupid.

[00:55:01] It's not stupid.

[00:55:03] That sounds, what an amazing concept.

[00:55:06] And I'm very, I know my book is fine,

[00:55:09] but we need that one too.

[00:55:10] Because I thought that was stupid.

[00:55:11] I was like.

[00:55:12] No, that's brilliant.

[00:55:14] And so what I did was I turned it to a white paper.

[00:55:17] White paper is a paper that isn't published.

[00:55:19] So I just pushed some thoughts down

[00:55:20] and then I submitted that to a conference,

[00:55:25] African American History Conference.

[00:55:27] Okay.

[00:55:28] Which is I think is the association on the life

[00:55:31] and study of African American history.

[00:55:35] And so they accepted it

[00:55:37] and an editor from one of the academic press,

[00:55:41] let me just say that.

[00:55:42] Okay.

[00:55:43] Approached me and he was like,

[00:55:44] hey are you interested in turning this into a book?

[00:55:46] And I was like, I didn't think about doing it.

[00:55:49] It would be a really good book.

[00:55:51] So I think you should submit a proposal.

[00:55:53] Here's my card.

[00:55:54] Right.

[00:55:55] We've been talking back and forth

[00:55:56] and so there's a movement,

[00:55:58] but I wanna make sure that it gets out

[00:56:02] how I would like it to.

[00:56:04] And so.

[00:56:05] Understood.

[00:56:05] I know how that goes too, yeah.

[00:56:08] It was a small idea.

[00:56:09] So for your book, it's an idea,

[00:56:12] but that's what happens.

[00:56:15] Let us all have books within the next X amount of months.

[00:56:18] How about that?

[00:56:19] We can all eat in this game.

[00:56:22] And I love the piece

[00:56:22] and I do encourage people if it's still on your Instagram

[00:56:26] to go check it out in parts.

[00:56:28] That's perfectly fine to, you know, you Netflixed it.

[00:56:30] It's all good.

[00:56:31] We can binge.

[00:56:32] I'll binge you.

[00:56:33] You know, it's no problem at all.

[00:56:37] And please and share with me

[00:56:39] so I can share with the folks anytime,

[00:56:40] you know, anything you got going on.

[00:56:42] Happy to do that, you know,

[00:56:43] whenever you're appearing or whenever you're publishing

[00:56:45] or putting something out.

[00:56:46] I appreciate you.

[00:56:46] I appreciate you Manny.

[00:56:48] Always.

[00:56:49] All right.

[00:56:50] All right, my friend, that's it.

[00:56:51] That's all we got.

[00:56:53] Cool.

[00:56:54] Go to bed.

[00:56:54] You gotta teach tomorrow.

[00:56:56] I do.

[00:56:57] It's kind of late, you know, fed my kids.

[00:56:59] But anyway, I'm about to eat something real quick

[00:57:02] and then I lie down.

[00:57:04] It's gonna be nice and light though.

[00:57:05] All right.

[00:57:06] I thank you so much.

[00:57:08] I'm so glad we got to catch up.

[00:57:09] Let's catch up again offline ASAP

[00:57:12] anytime you're available, I'm around.

[00:57:14] All right, we'll do.

[00:57:15] All right.

[00:57:16] Thank you.

[00:57:17] Peace and love.

[00:57:17] Good to see you.

[00:57:18] Dr. Dion Jones, the superheroette

[00:57:23] of hip hop occupational therapy.

[00:57:26] I mean, come on.

[00:57:27] When I tell you the most brilliant,

[00:57:31] the most passionate and the most innovative folk

[00:57:35] in hip hop can only be found here.

[00:57:38] I'm not lying.

[00:57:39] I'm just saying.

[00:57:40] I'm not doubting anybody else.

[00:57:43] I'm just saying.

[00:57:44] Please do check out our good friend, Dr. Dion Jones.

[00:57:48] It's Dion Jones on Instagram.

[00:57:51] I'm Manny Faces.

[00:57:53] You man, you mellow.

[00:57:54] This is Hip Hop Can Save America.

[00:57:56] Manny Faces.

[00:57:57] You sick for this one.

[00:57:58] Sick for this one.

[00:58:03] Once again, thanks for listening to another episode

[00:58:05] of Hip Hop Can Save America,

[00:58:07] AKA the world's most important hip hop podcast.

[00:58:10] My name is Manny Faces.

[00:58:11] You can find out more about the show

[00:58:13] at hiphopcansaveamerica.com.

[00:58:15] You can watch the show now as a live stream on YouTube,

[00:58:17] hiphopcansaveamerica.com slash watch.

[00:58:20] Check back for all the replays as well.

[00:58:22] The interviews from the live stream will be brought here

[00:58:23] onto the audio feed.

[00:58:25] We always get the best of the live stream.

[00:58:27] You can also check out our Substack newsletter.

[00:58:29] It's free at mannyfaces.substack.com,

[00:58:32] filled with stories of hip hop innovation,

[00:58:34] inspiration and in general,

[00:58:37] hip hop news that isn't about dumb.

[00:58:40] Eternal shouts to our consulting producer, Summer McCoy.

[00:58:42] Be sure to check out her dope initiatives,

[00:58:44] hip hop hacks and the Mixtape Museum.

[00:58:47] We'll be back soon with another dope episode,

[00:58:49] but check us out on the live stream as well.

[00:58:50] Monday's 9 p.m. Eastern, hiphopcansaveamerica.com slash watch.

[00:58:55] Until next time, it's Manny Faces wishing peace and love

[00:58:58] to you and yours.