Hip Hop at Howard: Hip Hop Studies Conference and Minor Program

[00:00:00] I am Brother Cornel West and this is Hip Hop Can Save America

[00:00:33] I am in the sub stack newsletter at mannyfaces.substack.com that's filled with all kinds of stories of hip hop innovation, inspiration and generally hip hop news that isn't about dumb s**t. For everything hip hop can save America, hiphopcansaveamerica.com. For everything Manny Faces, mannyfaces.com. And if you find value in this work, you can support it. We'd love to have you aboard as a supporter at patreon.com slash mannyfaces. Now let's go.

[00:00:57] The thing about hip-hop today is it's smart. It's insightful. The way that they can communicate a complex message in a very short space is remarkable. And a lot of these kids, they're not going to be reading the New York Times. That's not how they're getting their information.

[00:01:28] These can do when they're raised to you. But hip-hop will block the shot of the nation. Rap is something you do. Hip-hop is something you live. So hip-hop didn't invent anything, but hip-hop reinvented everything.

[00:01:43] Peace and love, everybody. It's your man, Manny Faces. On this episode of Hip-Hop Can Save America, I talked with Dr. Mcia Kibona-Clark and Dr. Roger Carruth from Howard University about the upcoming second annual Hip-Hop Studies Conference at HU.

[00:01:57] We also talked about the newly launched Hip-Hop Studies Minor at Howard, as well as general thoughts about hip-hop studies in general, the media and communications landscape as it pertains to hip-hop music and culture, how educators can learn from their students, and what we can expect as Howard University continues its historic role as an incubator of forward-thinking and interdisciplinary studies of hip-hop music, culture, and ethos.

[00:02:21] This year's conference is happening November 15th through 17th at Howard University's campus and features a plethora of panels, discussions, workshops, and more, including a screening of the film In the Hour of Chaos, Hip-Hop, Art, and Activism with Public Enemies Chuck D.,

[00:02:37] which highlights the transformative power of hip-hop with some of the nation's most insightful thinkers on the art form's social, cultural, and political significance.

[00:02:44] Narrated by Chuck D. himself and produced by the UCLA Hip-Hop Initiative.

[00:02:48] There will also be a Q&A with the folks from UCLA that helped create the initiative and the film, and it'll be moderated by me, Manny Faces.

[00:02:56] So if you're hearing this before the conference, I'll see you there.

[00:02:59] If not, make sure you stay abreast of everything happening at Howard University with their Hip-Hop Studies program and the next iterations of the Hip-Hop Studies conference.

[00:03:08] Now, let's get into it.

[00:03:09] My talk with Dr. Clark and Dr. Carruth from Howard University.

[00:03:13] Let's go.

[00:03:15] Dr. Clark, Dr. Carruth, thank you for joining me.

[00:03:17] I appreciate your time.

[00:03:18] Thank you for having us.

[00:03:20] It's a pleasure.

[00:03:20] Sure.

[00:03:21] Dr. Clark, you've been traveling, so I hope you're back acclimated and time-zoned and all that stuff.

[00:03:28] Yes.

[00:03:29] Yeah.

[00:03:29] Yeah.

[00:03:30] It's still a little bit of jet lag, but I'm good.

[00:03:34] I can imagine.

[00:03:35] I wanted to talk, obviously, let's start sort of at what's about to happen, and then we can backtrack and figure out how we got here and some things that are also about to happen.

[00:03:45] So I want to talk about the conference first and foremost.

[00:03:47] The Hip-Hop Conference is happening at Howard.

[00:03:49] This is now the second year, although you've had a history of conferences at Howard that have been hip-hop oriented.

[00:03:54] Just let us know what's in store for this year's iteration of that fantastic conference that I was at last year.

[00:04:01] Blessed and honored to have been part of.

[00:04:02] Tell me what's happening this year.

[00:04:04] What's in the works?

[00:04:05] So, well, we've gotten a lot of submissions this year, a lot more than we did last year.

[00:04:10] So we're excited about the panels that we're going to have.

[00:04:14] People from just diverse backgrounds.

[00:04:16] We have, of course, a lot of people from Howard, you know, a lot of faculty, students.

[00:04:20] But we also have a lot of community people.

[00:04:23] We're showing a documentary that was made by Chuck D when he was at UCLA doing a residency.

[00:04:29] So the folks at UCLA are coming with the film to do a Q&A.

[00:04:32] We're going to have several workshops and also performances and conversations with artists as well.

[00:04:40] So, yeah, we've got a lot of exciting things planned.

[00:04:43] Yeah. What was the, I guess, having not had done a conference of that size in some time last year, what was the takeaway from, you know, launching it again or, you know, bringing it to fruition?

[00:04:55] What was the takeaways?

[00:04:56] What did you want to do different or what did you want to do the same?

[00:04:59] Or would you know what came out of it that you really enjoyed?

[00:05:01] Well, it was definitely from what was done, like the first one, which was in 1991, which was student driven.

[00:05:08] And we were lucky to have Timothy Jones, you know, now at Howard as a faculty member.

[00:05:13] So he joined the committee.

[00:05:15] But I think we were also lucky to have folks from different backgrounds.

[00:05:18] So my department is African Studies.

[00:05:20] Dr. Carruth is in communication.

[00:05:22] We have people from Fionnars, people from business.

[00:05:24] So we were able to really kind of tap into each other's strengths and backgrounds to really kind of bring together.

[00:05:31] We had a really good balance of community folks, people in academia, artists.

[00:05:37] We had a really good gender balance.

[00:05:39] And so we were really happy about this.

[00:05:42] This year, it seems like we're going to have a lot more people doing international stuff, talking about hip hop in Latin America, Asia, Africa.

[00:05:49] So this one is definitely more driven by faculty than students.

[00:05:54] But we have definitely kind of made an effort to make sure we bring in students so that it's not just a bunch of old folks kind of talking to students about hip hop.

[00:06:03] They are also taking ownership of the conference as well.

[00:06:07] Yeah, that's always key.

[00:06:08] Is there a theme for this year?

[00:06:10] Yeah.

[00:06:10] Dr. Carruth?

[00:06:12] Do we have a theme?

[00:06:13] Do we come up with a theme?

[00:06:15] Could you rewind me?

[00:06:16] Yeah, I think it was just building off of last year's success.

[00:06:20] You know, hip hop 50 and then looking at hip hop beyond.

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:25] 50th.

[00:06:26] And to your point and Dr. Clark's point, hip hop is so dynamic.

[00:06:30] It's so robust.

[00:06:31] And I think bringing it back last year during the 50th was kind of a testament to that.

[00:06:36] And the amount of people that came out, the diverse backgrounds, as Dr. Clark mentioned.

[00:06:40] But now going into this year, particularly with the launch of the minor officially, that will be kicking off.

[00:06:46] So that's a good milestone for us to kind of jumpstart the idea.

[00:06:50] And then a variety of people looking to participate.

[00:06:53] I think the number of submissions that we got is a testament to that.

[00:06:57] And then also the different disciplines that we'll be focusing on.

[00:07:02] And so as Dr. Clark mentioned, we have industry folks, student participation, and just the idea that hip hop is just a dynamic field.

[00:07:09] It's not static.

[00:07:10] So, you know, we're going to learn a lot because people are doing a variety of research in the area from an international perspective.

[00:07:17] When we look at what's happening in technology and even how with the advent of technology, you're going to see new fields of industry emerge from it.

[00:07:26] When you're looking at ideas of AI, how do you manage that?

[00:07:30] How do you regulate that?

[00:07:31] This industry as a whole, are they going to embrace that and find a way to incorporate it into the field as it continues to grow?

[00:07:39] So just being around scholars that are doing research in those specific areas would be interesting to see because sometimes we're all siloed and we're doing great work.

[00:07:48] And we hear about people in L.A. and people in New York doing this, this, and that.

[00:07:53] But when we get together in one place, we can be collectively exchanging ideas.

[00:07:57] And I think that's probably part of what we do as academics.

[00:08:00] You know, we kind of bring people together to create a brain trust of sharing ideas and actually finding ways to collaborate and work together.

[00:08:08] So I think that's the goal of this conference.

[00:08:11] So being able to be a part of it and actually having this as being a second year for this particular conference, because it's a hip hop studies conference, not just about the art of hip hop, but the different aspects of it.

[00:08:24] I think that's the beauty.

[00:08:25] Yeah. And I always appreciate, obviously, when we spend, I won't say it like this, but less time on the entertainment side of things, more about the interdisciplinary, you know, ways that hip hop does touch upon, like you said, all these industries, all these fields that aren't always typically associated with the art forms themselves.

[00:08:41] So that's always valuable to me, you know, when you have that opportunity.

[00:08:44] And so when you bring in folks that aren't necessarily, all right, we don't discount the artists and the artistry, you know, but the other areas and aspects that's important.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:52] Yeah. And that's key.

[00:08:53] I mean, from fashion to people that are doing the dance aspects of it.

[00:09:00] Obviously, the musicology is a core and key part of it, but the philosophy of hip hop, we have some interests from folks out of my school of communications that are in the legal field of criminology of hip hop with some of the things that we've seen emerge recently for a variety of reasons.

[00:09:16] But just the idea of how far can the art form be taken and how far, what aspects of it are figurative and which aspects of it are literal and which parts of it can be kind of, I use the word used, but which parts of it can be incorporated into things that play out in real life.

[00:09:35] And should we be on guard? You know, what is art and things that happen in the real world? Is there a balance there, right? Where was what are some things that are theoretical and some things that are practical, right?

[00:09:48] And should artists be on guard about expressing themselves through this art form as a way of maybe having this thing come back and bite them just based on what's happening now?

[00:09:58] Yeah, I did the thing that New Yorkers do when I moved to Atlanta. And so I'm right here with the thug trial. And of course, you know, you hear a lot of these things happening.

[00:10:05] And in legal circles throughout the country, well, throughout the world, really.

[00:10:09] Actually, that ties into something about like sort of some of your work that I, as I understand it, studying technology, media communications, right?

[00:10:18] Particularly some of the instances of disinformation or misinformation that's happening through these channels, particularly as they affect communities of color.

[00:10:27] And the, I guess, the growth of this vehicle to reach and to disseminate information at scale.

[00:10:36] How does studying that work tie into, I guess, the entertainment business or entertainment or social media as a whole, but maybe hip hop in general?

[00:10:44] How do these things connect and how bad is it?

[00:10:49] I mean, I think we're at a crossroads, right?

[00:10:52] Because the technology has allowed for the decentralization of the art form where you have, you don't have as many gatekeepers, right?

[00:11:01] To determine what makes it, what doesn't, right?

[00:11:04] And, you know, folks can be in their basements and their rooms and their offices or wherever and make music without it having to be regulated by a certain group of people.

[00:11:15] But at the same time, you ask yourself within that scope, where's the quality control, right?

[00:11:20] And art is so subjective, music is so subjective.

[00:11:24] How do we then determine which aspects of it is palatable, right?

[00:11:29] And which aspects of it should be given the ability for it to find its audience?

[00:11:35] And I think it's a balance.

[00:11:37] In looking at AI, for example, I believe there's some ways where AI now is being validated, right?

[00:11:43] How can we judge that where artists put their works out and with permission, maybe allow derivatives to be created from it?

[00:11:51] And those derivatives allow the art form to spread a lot quicker.

[00:11:55] You know, you look at technology and I point to recent episode with Kendrick Lamar, with the whole situation with Drake,

[00:12:03] when he, a lot of people have access to the work without putting any restrictions on it.

[00:12:09] And that allowed it to kind of flourish.

[00:12:12] It was almost like a form of guerrilla marketing, if you will, right?

[00:12:16] Because then it took on a life of its own and it spread quicker than he could have just trying to put into regular, you know,

[00:12:22] pockets of how do you kind of distribute and put your music out?

[00:12:25] Do you tie it to a brand?

[00:12:26] Do you put in a commercial rather than he gave it to the people and said, you have at it, right?

[00:12:31] Because everybody know where it came from.

[00:12:33] And ultimately it would come back to him anyway, but it's almost like a freebie.

[00:12:37] So technology is erupting and evolving.

[00:12:39] But again, it comes back to, as Dr. Clark alluded to earlier, are we, should we be mindful of us not being a bunch of old people in the room talking about that's not music?

[00:12:49] You know, what is that?

[00:12:50] You know, or should we just allow it to flourish and grow?

[00:12:54] Because these, you know, the younger generation, the technologies, their soundtrack, their access to the mediums and platforms that ultimately, you know,

[00:13:03] usually have been controlled by other folks, right?

[00:13:05] So how do you balance that?

[00:13:07] I don't even have an answer for it, right?

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:09] There are some artists that are putting out great work.

[00:13:12] Sure.

[00:13:12] Right?

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:13] The whole thing is sort of a blessing and a curse, I suppose.

[00:13:16] Right.

[00:13:16] In many ways.

[00:13:17] Yeah.

[00:13:18] Dr. Clark, what are your thoughts about that?

[00:13:19] And also, like, I know, you know, we've talked and I know that the underlying theme of a lot of the work that you do,

[00:13:25] and we'll talk about the work abroad, I know it's hip hop could save America and I know it could save the world too.

[00:13:30] Everyone tells me, I know, I know, I know.

[00:13:32] I'm working on that.

[00:13:33] Can I do this one first?

[00:13:34] I tell them, let me do this show first.

[00:13:35] Then we'll do that show.

[00:13:36] I own the domain.

[00:13:37] I'm on it.

[00:13:37] But specifically to the idea of the idea that hip hop still has that force of social justice, you know, in it,

[00:13:44] that the ability to spread messaging and to bring people together, maybe not always on the radio.

[00:13:49] Like we used to have fight the power on the radio and you could hear it, you know, but those songs exist.

[00:13:54] Those artists still exist.

[00:13:55] Those movements still exist.

[00:13:56] The conferences, like I said, there's no secret that by doing hip hop studies correctly, you're doing social justice, right?

[00:14:03] You're uplifting the field.

[00:14:04] So how does technology, how do you see like sort of the current state of music, the art, communications, technology, digital media,

[00:14:11] and this wild media ecosystem playing off of each other today?

[00:14:15] Well, I definitely think one of the things I love about being in academia is the students, this generation, the younger generation, Gen Z, is not afraid to challenge.

[00:14:24] And so whatever our concepts or ideas are, they will, they constantly challenge us that they don't agree.

[00:14:31] And so I know I have been forced to kind of check myself and, you know, with like drill music, for example,

[00:14:38] I've had to really ask them like, what, what's going on?

[00:14:42] What am I missing?

[00:14:42] I don't really feel like sitting there listening to hours of drill music to figure it out.

[00:14:46] So really getting feedback from them, but then also kind of understanding how they're using technology

[00:14:52] and not having that kind of knee-jerk reaction to this is not authentic,

[00:14:58] but looking at how they're finding their voices, how they're using technology in ways that, you know, older generations, I'm Gen X,

[00:15:05] we just have been, a lot of us have been slower to embrace.

[00:15:09] And when we see something we don't know, we don't understand, or we can't do the, I think the temptation is to just reject it.

[00:15:16] And so being in academia and working with students, it's forcing us to contend with it.

[00:15:22] And, and, you know, as faculty, we have to contend with AI.

[00:15:25] And it's such a huge part of what's happening.

[00:15:28] And so we can't just dismiss.

[00:15:30] So I have enjoyed learning a lot from students and really learning a lot about the technology through their eyes.

[00:15:38] So that's, that's been nice.

[00:15:40] And, and again, relating that to how you see things happen in other parts of the world,

[00:15:44] one of the other great perspectives that you bring that a lot of us, I don't know if you heard this,

[00:15:47] but America could be very self-centered.

[00:15:51] And, and we do that in hip hop.

[00:15:53] We do that at a time.

[00:15:53] We don't really think about, you know, the global aspects of it.

[00:15:56] So I always, I love, I have your book and I love, you know, hearing the podcast because you bring to light some of the perspectives that,

[00:16:04] you know, because we're so entertainment business minded with the culture these days here in America,

[00:16:08] we, we, again, we think these things don't exist, but they, they exist perhaps elsewhere.

[00:16:13] It's more of the zeitgeist in some of the other countries and some of the parts of the world.

[00:16:18] So what are some comparisons that you see when you're traveling abroad covering hip hop in Africa, for example?

[00:16:24] And I know that we could talk about that for a year.

[00:16:27] Africa is not just a country, right?

[00:16:29] From what I understand.

[00:16:31] So, but just in general, sort of the idea that it used to be much more part of what we would see in terms of hip hop,

[00:16:37] social justice messaging, being, you know, pushing back counterculture, all that stuff.

[00:16:41] And we don't see it as much here.

[00:16:43] Again, I just have to always remind people that it does exist and it exists in different forms these days.

[00:16:48] What do you see parallel and how that aspect of hip hop lives and breathes outside of the borders of the United States?

[00:16:55] Well, I do think everyone around the world is, is plugged into what's happening here.

[00:16:59] So like people on the continent are, you know, debating Kendrick Drake.

[00:17:04] And so they were engaged in those conversations.

[00:17:06] I know in the UK, for example, most of the artists are children of African and Caribbean immigrants,

[00:17:10] but they're also dealing with the whole using of hip hop lyrics to, to basically prosecute artists.

[00:17:16] So that's happening in the UK as well.

[00:17:19] You know, when Chuck D recently said that the future of hip hop was in Africa, I was like, oh,

[00:17:23] I felt good because it's Chuck D.

[00:17:25] So like who's going to argue Chuck D?

[00:17:27] But I mean, just really the way artists are using language and mixing languages, three and four languages in one verse.

[00:17:33] But I also think there's a bigger connection is happening between different countries in Africa and Europe.

[00:17:39] So artists are finding great careers in Europe, England and France.

[00:17:44] There are a lot of opportunities.

[00:17:45] I once saw, it was a documentary or a show or something where I think it was Ice Cube.

[00:17:51] Who was talking to Stormzy, who was like massively famous artist.

[00:17:56] But he was talking to Stormzy as if, oh, isn't this nice?

[00:17:59] Oh, you do hip hop in the UK?

[00:18:01] Oh, that's cute.

[00:18:02] Yeah.

[00:18:04] Very demure.

[00:18:07] So I think we don't even really have a concept of what's happening right there in Europe.

[00:18:14] I know that a lot of artists are, you know, when I was there, Talib Kweli was there.

[00:18:20] I was talking to some of the artists in the UK and they were saying that a lot of Gen X artists will come to the UK because they know that their music is very much appreciated.

[00:18:30] And so Talib did like three shows and the shows I went to, they were, you know, smaller venues, but they were all packed.

[00:18:36] So they were saying that a lot of artists will come like every year to do shows because that's where they're kind of getting the love.

[00:18:45] Where in the States, they may not get that same kind of reception.

[00:18:49] So there's a lot happening in Europe.

[00:18:52] There's a lot happening in Asia.

[00:18:53] There's, of course, a lot happening in Africa.

[00:18:54] So I definitely would love for us to kind of in the States to really embrace what's happening internationally.

[00:19:02] I know the Trinity International Hip Hop Festival that happens every year in Connecticut is like the best place for me to go and see who from all over the world is doing what.

[00:19:13] But I wish we had more festivals that were international, more places where international folks kind of came together and could see what's happening in each other's hip hop communities.

[00:19:23] Yeah, definitely.

[00:19:24] I'll just also plug the conference that I helped co-chair with Dr. Tasha Iglesias, the Global Conference on Hip Hop Education, which isn't at festivals like status yet, but that'd be great to get there.

[00:19:36] You know what I mean?

[00:19:36] But, you know, we grew out of the pandemic.

[00:19:37] We did stuff remotely and we just did an in-person last year in California, UC University of California.

[00:19:45] I remember.

[00:19:46] I didn't do a chance, but I remember.

[00:19:48] Yeah.

[00:19:48] Yeah.

[00:19:48] So we're looking into doing that again.

[00:19:50] But again, to your point, the more of the international aspect, the merrier.

[00:19:55] You know, maybe we'll have a Hip Hop Could Save the World soon.

[00:19:57] We're working on it.

[00:19:58] So let's talk about then bringing it back home, bringing it back to Howard.

[00:20:02] Let's talk about this minor program.

[00:20:03] We talked about it last year when it was sort of in its planning stages or you were pushing for it.

[00:20:09] I want to know what goes into that.

[00:20:11] But also, it's a little bit surprising that it that these don't exist more, you know, already.

[00:20:17] And that seems like it was a long time coming.

[00:20:18] So I'd like to just know a little bit about the genesis of the idea, how it came to be.

[00:20:22] And, you know, what does it look like in practice?

[00:20:26] Well, we started in 2019 before COVID and a bunch of us kind of came together and, you know, started talking about wanting to have a minor.

[00:20:35] We weren't sure if we wanted to do a major or a minor.

[00:20:37] So we felt like a minor was easier.

[00:20:40] And Howard, I don't know how many years ago, the Interdisciplinary Studies Department was established, but it hasn't always been there.

[00:20:47] But it is a place to house minors and majors that include classes from multiple departments.

[00:20:51] Because prior to the biggest kind of setback was which department was going to house it.

[00:20:57] And of course, like anything hip hop related, there's always kind of the battle over, you know, who's going to have control over it.

[00:21:06] Very hip hop thing.

[00:21:08] Exactly.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:09] So IDS really allowed us to say, OK, we want to have the minor.

[00:21:13] We want to be able to have classes from departments all over the university.

[00:21:17] And then COVID happened.

[00:21:20] But some of us, like we stuck with it.

[00:21:23] We were meeting during the summer.

[00:21:24] We were meeting during breaks.

[00:21:26] It was weird.

[00:21:28] We were going to stick with it.

[00:21:30] And I think it took a handful of us to really stick with it.

[00:21:34] Folks came and went.

[00:21:36] And so we finally kind of went through all the hurdles, getting the signatures and, you know, question after question after question.

[00:21:43] It hit the board of trustees from what I understand, you know, again, the hip hop generation, we're at an age now where we can make things happen.

[00:21:51] There were people on the board who came from it.

[00:21:54] So they were able to kind of like advocate for us.

[00:21:57] It wasn't a foreign idea.

[00:21:59] Exactly.

[00:21:59] As it might have been if it had been done 10 years earlier.

[00:22:01] You got people in there who were like, what is what?

[00:22:05] Right.

[00:22:05] Exactly.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:07] Yeah.

[00:22:07] And I think the beauty of it, too, what Dr. Clark mentioned, folks are operating in their silos.

[00:22:14] They had individual one-off classes.

[00:22:16] Everybody feels so personal about their connection to hip hop and usually sees it and possibly teaches it from that lens.

[00:22:24] And that could kind of be restrictive because I think the knowledge that they have would probably benefit a broader group of students and faculty members as well.

[00:22:32] So having a group work with Dr. Clark and the other members, Ms. King and others to say, hey, the long-term goal would be to have a major, but let's start off with a minor.

[00:22:44] Since we have these classes that are being offered anyway, students need to have a minor.

[00:22:49] And we can touch on aspects of hip hop that can give everyone kind of a sampling of what could be.

[00:22:55] So coming out of the School of Communications, we have audio engineering and production classes taught by Grammy-nominated artists and engineers, right?

[00:23:04] We have philosophy of hip hop.

[00:23:06] We have the business of hip hop and music.

[00:23:09] And we have fashion.

[00:23:10] So being able to put that under one space and, as Dr. Clark mentioned, not having someone feel territorial about their stuff and can be opened up to everybody else kind of gives folks an example.

[00:23:22] And then tying that to the conference where you have practitioners and scholars from all over saying, hey, Howard had something here.

[00:23:29] And maybe let's go over here and kind of share our insight.

[00:23:32] We'll give us a platform and then continue to elevate it.

[00:23:37] And as classes are being added and we kind of get past that aspect of it, then we can look down maybe two or three years down the line.

[00:23:44] Can we really get a major going, particularly when you have PWIs far ahead of where we are?

[00:23:50] They're collecting artifacts.

[00:23:52] They're having artists in residence.

[00:23:54] I mean, you can go down the list.

[00:23:55] And I think we have the ability to do that once we have this established because we can go out and seek the support to bring artists in because oftentimes that's always a drawback.

[00:24:04] Some other schools are more resourced than we are.

[00:24:07] But being able to say we have a space to house this program and now we can bring in subject matter experts, particularly as we're seeing the evolution of the technologies we talked about.

[00:24:19] And the field is evolving rapidly, being able to have those folks come in and let students know in particular, like, hey, this is where the industry is going.

[00:24:28] This is where you may want to try to channel yourself, to position yourself, to be key members of the industry going forward.

[00:24:35] Here were some job opportunities.

[00:24:37] Here's how the industry is shifting.

[00:24:39] Here's how you can prepare yourself to be a part of this new marketplace, given what's happening.

[00:24:44] Because at the end of the day, I don't think the intellectuals and IP owners and artists are going anywhere.

[00:24:52] It's just a matter of what vehicles now are going to be available to allow them to put their work into the marketplace.

[00:24:58] And if we can prepare our students to kind of be up on those trends.

[00:25:02] And as I think Dr. Clark mentioned, it's a two-way street because students, they're creators, but they're also telling us what's happening and where we need to be, where we need to be looking in terms of the industry.

[00:25:17] I know in working in the ad space, for example, the ad agencies come to us looking for our students to find out what they're thinking.

[00:25:25] But one thing that came out of several conversations, particularly during COVID, was that culture tells them what to do, right?

[00:25:33] So the culture drives the marketplace.

[00:25:35] So whatever's happening culture-wise, they tend to then move in that direction and shift their ideas, talk to their brand, brand partners, sponsors, corporate folks to say,

[00:25:45] Hey, this is what's happening on the ground.

[00:25:47] If you look at what happened yesterday with the WNBA, I was looking at a stat today where they sold out in one day of all their merch on the Phonetics store, right?

[00:25:59] Wow.

[00:25:59] And they saw, you know, the TV ratings were up.

[00:26:01] The arena was sold out last night.

[00:26:03] And that game five was like a men's game seven.

[00:26:07] Sure was.

[00:26:08] And I don't watch a lot of them, but I watched that one.

[00:26:11] I got into the hype too.

[00:26:12] I already know.

[00:26:13] Yeah.

[00:26:14] So things like that.

[00:26:15] And then when you look at the number of eyeballs and the things, and if you look at it from a consumer-driven standpoint,

[00:26:22] if you look at the commercials and the things that were happening, the underlying tone was pop culture, which I call hip-hop, right?

[00:26:28] And that drives it.

[00:26:29] So where are we going now?

[00:26:30] Are we going to see things that are catered more to female or woman demographics from the standpoint of artists, right?

[00:26:37] Are we going to see more artists from that perspective drive the narrative in terms of their music, what they're saying,

[00:26:43] how they're presenting themselves to drive the hip-hop culture forward?

[00:26:46] And part of their conversation is going back to, like, what's happening?

[00:26:50] Where do we balance entertainment versus social commentary, right?

[00:26:54] Can we find that medium that makes everybody happy where it can still move industry, talk about what's happening in various communities and how people are feeling about themselves, how they want to be seen, but also still create commerce, right?

[00:27:08] And I think the genre and the medium is growing in a lot of different ways.

[00:27:13] And, you know, being able to have that kind of space for that commentary, that exchange of ideas at Howard in particular through the conference and through the minors, kind of our goal at this point.

[00:27:24] Yeah.

[00:27:25] Well, it's noble.

[00:27:26] And also it's in the DNA of Howard.

[00:27:29] Like, you know what I mean?

[00:27:30] Going back to that earlier, that original conference and the student leadership that came out of those days, it's a great place for it.

[00:27:36] I think just a couple more quick.

[00:27:38] You're talking about things of the moment.

[00:27:41] Just real quick, your thoughts on how hip-hop can or should or needs to or will touch on the civic engagement of young people.

[00:27:52] You know, you deal with young folk all the time.

[00:27:53] They're just getting, you know, involved politically.

[00:27:55] How do those worlds come together?

[00:27:57] Hip-hop and politics or hip-hop and political, I won't say activism necessarily, but just civic engagement.

[00:28:03] I mean, how do you see those fields connecting, you know, in the halls of Howard?

[00:28:08] Well, you know, Howard has a history of producing social activists.

[00:28:12] And I think hip-hop is a genre that is also kind of spoken truth to power regardless of, you know, where you are in the world.

[00:28:20] Well, I think that looking at the challenges, the topics that young people are dealing with now, I do think that the level of political content in mainstream hip-hop we know has declined.

[00:28:32] And so in talking to students about who are you going, what artists are you listening to for that social political content, they don't have as many options.

[00:28:43] Yeah.

[00:28:43] But I do see that some things are just there, but they look different.

[00:28:48] So looking at specifically hip-hop feminism and the way women are really expressing their sexuality in ways I think some older generations and some folks are kind of not as comfortable with.

[00:29:01] I know I haven't been quite as comfortable with some of it.

[00:29:03] Sure.

[00:29:04] But in talking to women about them kind of taking charge of their own sexuality and kind of really dismantling respectability politics in ways that are sometimes uncomfortable, but it is forcing us to kind of have conversations.

[00:29:23] So I think that's one area where we need to have more conversations because I do think that some of the women that are artists that are kind of centering their sexuality in explicit ways are doing so because the industry says this is a kind of artist that we want to present.

[00:29:41] Right.

[00:29:42] And if you're not going to fit this mold, then we're not, you know, going to kind of invest in you.

[00:29:46] Sure.

[00:29:46] So understanding the difference between supporting women and being able to center their sexuality in ways that they want and kind of understanding and supporting women who are being pressured, but then also supporting those who want to center their sexuality in more explicit ways.

[00:30:03] I think kind of those are the conversations I see a lot of them grappling with in ways that are slightly different than my generation grappled with it.

[00:30:12] I was going to say that does touch upon, in some ways, political issues of the day, you know.

[00:30:17] You were going to say, Dr. Boothman?

[00:30:18] Yeah, I would say, well, one, you know, a lot of my students, you know, my class, I could count on one hand how many male students I have, right?

[00:30:25] So my classes are predominantly young women.

[00:30:28] For a lot of them, for this go around, this is their first time voting, right?

[00:30:33] And being involved in the electoral process.

[00:30:35] So having someone like Kamala in this forefront now could be that tipping point.

[00:30:40] I know to a certain degree, some students kind of are exhausted about the current nature of hip hop, right?

[00:30:50] Not that it has to be fully social commentary and political commentary all the time, but I think there's some things that they're kind of tired of to a certain degree.

[00:31:00] The other part of it, particularly in my scope and where I teach on the advertising perspectives, it's a balance.

[00:31:06] And I don't have the answer to it, quite honestly, but you give an artist an opportunity to evolve and grow over creative time, right?

[00:31:14] And as Dr. Clark mentioned, there's a framework of here's a roadmap to how you become successful as a woman in history.

[00:31:21] You look at artists like Cardi B and Meg Thee Stallion, they have all evolved from when they came out.

[00:31:26] Now they're corporate sweetheart.

[00:31:28] You see Meg everywhere.

[00:31:29] You see her in commercials and movies and she's, you know, kind of the it person at the moment, right?

[00:31:36] If you look at where she was versus where she is now, it's almost like a 360.

[00:31:40] So the point is that she'd come in and say, I have this captive audience now.

[00:31:44] I need to evolve and grow as an artist.

[00:31:46] And my art form has changed.

[00:31:48] Or has she shifted based on the corporate pressures to say, if you want to go further, here's what you need to do.

[00:31:53] But come back to where we are now, you have an artist kind of, you know, and been a hot topic, but sexy red, right?

[00:32:01] So she's here at this moment and students, some students like what she does, how she presents herself.

[00:32:07] They like the fact that her music is hot and not binding to the political, the lyricism of it, but just kind of like it's a hot song.

[00:32:18] But some students have had conversation with them.

[00:32:20] Do you allow that artist to grow or would she lose that core fan base?

[00:32:26] Because this is how they know her.

[00:32:28] Cover that with, because she's such a big attention driver, would corporate America, as Dr. Clark mentioned, respectability politics.

[00:32:37] Do you lower that bar standard to say she's going to give us a bunch of eyeballs and we don't care what she's saying, right?

[00:32:43] So it's like, how do you have that? I don't even feel comfortable having that conversation because I'm not a woman, right?

[00:32:49] How do I know what and how they should be presenting themselves?

[00:32:53] Is it an art form? Is it her artistry?

[00:32:57] Is it the opportunity that she had to get in the door based on the fact that they are gatekeepers that probably wouldn't allow her in any other way?

[00:33:05] Maybe she has more to say and she needs to grow to that point.

[00:33:08] Do we have that tolerance, right?

[00:33:09] And the challenge that I always struggle with is sometimes the loudest voice is not always the representation of who we are.

[00:33:16] Sure.

[00:33:17] And in conversations with my students, sometimes the only person of color in the room and sometimes the only woman in the room, right?

[00:33:26] And you're asked to be the arbiter of what we like.

[00:33:31] Right.

[00:33:31] And when there's an assumption that we like all the things that are the most played, the most seen, the most visible when you may have, you know, like I always tell my students, my daughter likes Steve Lacey and folks like that.

[00:33:44] Tyler, the creator and folks that are different to a certain degree in terms of their presentation of their art.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:50] But they're not messaging out the things that you hear every day.

[00:33:55] Right.

[00:33:55] So where is that balance?

[00:33:56] And I don't necessarily think we have an answer, but going back to the conference and being in front of young people, it's all the idea of it's all the notion of exchanging ideas.

[00:34:06] Right.

[00:34:06] So we can find out, have an open dialogue about it because I don't think it's going to ever be solved with one or two conversations.

[00:34:13] It's going to have to be ongoing dialogue because everything is happening simultaneously.

[00:34:18] Right.

[00:34:18] It doesn't, the technology doesn't slow down while the conversation is happening, while the artists are being developed.

[00:34:24] Right.

[00:34:25] I think the music industry is shifting.

[00:34:27] It kind of almost reminds me of when, you know, you went away from physical CDs and Apple started charging 99 cents for a download.

[00:34:34] Right.

[00:34:34] Everybody was talking about, oh, sure, what do we do now?

[00:34:36] You know, you don't have to buy a whole CD.

[00:34:38] It's going to disrupt and destroy things as we know it.

[00:34:41] However, it just, we evolved and we adapted to it.

[00:34:45] Right.

[00:34:46] Yeah.

[00:34:46] And I always say, you know, hip hop, especially hip hop minded folk, hip hop, folks with hip hop sensibilities are perhaps the best at adapting and pivoting, you know, because it's always the art of the remix.

[00:34:55] It's always, you know, flipping it to something else.

[00:34:57] And so that's why, that's why these conversations continue to happen and need to happen.

[00:35:02] They need to happen in a place like Howard, of course.

[00:35:04] And so let's just remind one, one time again, the conference is a good, you know, milestone yearly reminder to get together and have these discussions that are necessary.

[00:35:14] It's coming up again.

[00:35:15] And just once again, what can we expect from there?

[00:35:17] And what are we looking forward to?

[00:35:20] Really a community of folks coming together, community of activists, artists, academics coming together.

[00:35:25] And honestly, I love the networking that happens.

[00:35:28] I love thinking like, oh, these people need to be in a room and then seeing them in a room together.

[00:35:33] Right.

[00:35:34] So that's what I'm excited about is people getting together with other people who are doing similar work and then building off of that.

[00:35:41] Because I have seen folks post conference kind of do stuff together or go to each other's events, do projects together.

[00:35:49] So that's what I'm looking forward to.

[00:35:51] It's really just a kind of massive meeting of hip hop artists, activists, hip hop heads coming together and building.

[00:36:00] Artists don't always think academic conferences where I should be.

[00:36:03] Right.

[00:36:04] But I always say artists, that's exactly where you should be.

[00:36:06] Because as you talk, Dr. Ruth, about the evolution of your artistry, one of the ways to do that is to realize that you don't just have to be on stage in front of, you know, a crowd of people.

[00:36:14] You could be in a room full of teachers or you could become a teaching artist or there's other ways to kind of divert your artistry and being it's so inspiring.

[00:36:22] I've talked to artists that have been at some of these stuff.

[00:36:23] I didn't even know.

[00:36:25] They feel so comfortable.

[00:36:26] They see a sense of, I don't know, just like I said, new avenues where their art is respected and looked at critically, which sometimes they want more than they get from just a fan listening and, you know, loving what they're doing.

[00:36:38] Yeah.

[00:36:39] And I will also say, first of all, the conference is November 15th, 16th, and 17th.

[00:36:44] We have opening reception, a full day of conference and panels and breakout sessions.

[00:36:50] We have a smaller session on Sunday, have a student opportunity for students to have a town hall and just talk about what's on their mind rather than us talking about what they should be talking about, what they're thinking.

[00:37:02] And that's run by some graduate students who are studying hip hop and, you know, more in tune with what's happening on the ground.

[00:37:10] So I would definitely say that part of it is a key component of what we need to do to continue to push this dialogue and conversation forward.

[00:37:19] Very dope.

[00:37:19] Well, as y'all know, I will do my best to spread the word, let people know about it.

[00:37:23] I did already amplify the call for papers earlier.

[00:37:26] So if you got a lot of submissions, it must be because a lot of people listen to me.

[00:37:29] I'm just going to take that.

[00:37:30] I'm going to give myself that credit.

[00:37:32] But I'm excited to see it, to hear about it, to learn about it, to let people know about it.

[00:37:36] And as I can attest to, it is quite a place to be.

[00:37:39] So I thank you both for your time breaking all this down, the hip hop minor, the conference, everything that's happening.

[00:37:45] And Howard, in your respective departments, it's an honor to talk to you.

[00:37:50] And I love learning more about your work.

[00:37:51] Is there anything else that I need to express to folks that we might have missed or that I didn't cover?

[00:37:56] No, I will.

[00:37:57] At Howard Hip Hop on IG, we're on Instagram at Howard Hip Hop.

[00:38:01] And so you can also find some information there and reach out to us at hiphopathoward.edu is an email address that folks can use.

[00:38:10] I want to thank you because I've, you know, been a longtime listener of the show and, you know, actually reached out to some people, especially Timothy, when he was on your show.

[00:38:18] I had to get on him about, he was talking about us and Howard.

[00:38:21] And I heard you're on the podcast.

[00:38:25] Look at me affecting the zeitgeist.

[00:38:29] I appreciate that appreciation very much.

[00:38:34] Absolutely.

[00:38:35] All right.

[00:38:35] We'll see you soon.

[00:38:36] Thanks again.

[00:38:37] Come back until the same time.

[00:38:38] Yes.

[00:38:39] Thanks for having us.

[00:38:40] Bye-bye.

[00:38:40] All right.

[00:38:41] Many faces.

[00:38:42] You sick for this one.

[00:38:46] Once again, thanks for listening to another episode of Hip Hop Can Save America, a.k.a.

[00:38:51] the world's most important hip hop podcast.

[00:38:54] My name is Manny Faces.

[00:38:55] You can find out more about the show at hiphopcansaveamerica.com.

[00:38:58] You can watch the show now as a live stream on YouTube, hiphopcansaveamerica.com slash watch.

[00:39:03] Check back for all the replays as well.

[00:39:05] The interviews from the live stream will be brought here onto the audio feed, so you always get the best of the live stream.

[00:39:11] You can also check out our Substack newsletter.

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[00:39:16] Filled with stories of hip hop innovation, inspiration, and in general, hip hop news that isn't about dumb s**t.

[00:39:23] Eternal shouts to our consulting producer, Summer McCoy.

[00:39:26] Be sure to check out her dope initiatives, Hip Hop Hacks, and the Mixtape Museum.

[00:39:30] We'll be back soon with another dope episode, but check us out on the live stream as well.

[00:39:34] Mondays 9 p.m. Eastern, hiphopcansaveamerica.com slash watch.

[00:39:38] Until next time, it's Manny Faces wishing peace and love to you and yours.